45 Bullet to Bore Questions

[SpringThunder]

Hey everybody!
I'm not new to muzzleloading but I am new to bullet to bore and have a handful of questions.
Nobody that I know shoots a 45 let alone bullet to bore in any muzzleloaders.
Shooting a knight Ultralite 45. 1-20 twist. 275 Ballistic extreme is what I'm dialed in for now and have 250 and 300 to play with but interested in other options. only 15 rounds through this rig at the time so time will tell if I even really need to venture from Ballistic Extremes.
Woods hunting from sunrise to say 2pm and then field sitting past that. Woods shots are woods shots but the fields I can hunt if a man put in the time he could really reach out there. Distance isn't the name of the game but if I can work something up to say 250/300 yard shot with a good tight group at the range and tested in field scenarios at the range I would possibly send them that far. I'd imagine with proper bullets I'd have nothing to worry with a magnum charge sending them through dinner at a distance as long as I can do my part. Won't if I cant.

1. What bullets are safe to shoot bullet to bore? All flat bases or just certain flat bases? any other options? Makes and models would be awesome!
(I feel like anyone experienced with bullet to bore could run up a post and have it pinned. I've used the search feature and read a pile of threads and have picked Parker Ballistic Extremes to start off with but don't have to many clues as to what I can or can't do.)
I'd love to shoot 45 xtp mags for the velocity range they offer or just for trigger time at the range to save the Ballistic Extremes, if satisfied with them, as they are a tad steeper than XTP.

2. Is sizing all copper bullets, like a barnes expander .451, possible or would it possibly cause damage the the sizing die or the barrel?
I have a swinglock sizing die and the lee hand press for being able to size at the range and in general.
The Bear Creek ballistics 450 bushmaster round has done me well and I see they offer a Muzzleloader round, possibly the same one as the Bushy, for use with sabots out of a 50. Question #1 will probably answer both 1 and 2.

3. Wool wads... to lube or not to lube?
I purchased 45 cal wool wads and have since read I should have bought 50 cal for the 45? either way the 45 wool non lubed pushed that ballistic extreme out at red ryder velocity. Switched to Veggies and no issue because its what I should have seated that first shot on anyway.

4. Shooting blackhorn, would yall advise a man, bullet to bore or not, to have the scope dialed to a fouled barrel or that first clean shot?
Probably wouldn't be cleaning the barrel after sending a round into my steaks so I'm leaning towards fouled barrel scope zero.

5. If zeroed in on fouled barrel would yall recommend snapping some primers off before hunting and loading before hitting the woods?
That is what I have done with my 50 shooting sabots in the past and will probably zero on the fouled barrel and snap a couple off before loading and hitting the woods. Why fix what has worked in the past, can you tell me? I will play around at the range to figure this all out but just strapped on time to actually hit the range.

7. Going out on a limb, is anyone located near Kane County Illinois with some private dirt to have some range time? I work 6 days out of the week so hitting the range and church on Sunday I'm strapped on time for both and as a non member or even member at most "local" ranges I still would be stuck to sundays. Would love the opportunity to one get to know anyone out this way as the younger generation, myself, not many folks are into muzzleloading, shooting or hunting in general and two have another person either educated to mentor me along this bullet to bore journey or just a buddy in general. I can definitely put in some work to gain permission if you don't want anything to do with me but would allow me to shoot.
Pops was a hunter safety instructor and all my mentors growing up were as well so even though I'm some random yahoo I was born and raised around guns so I know the respect needed to be had with them and on the properties I have them on. Not a total yahoo hahaha.

8. Last question. Would slugging my barrel give me the same measurements as just sticking a dial caliper groove to groove or land to land or is slugging the ideal method for measure? Don't have a caliper as of yet but will be picking one up. I'll take some recommendations on a quality caliper too.

Illinois has a .44 minimum, if the dnr wanted to they could bring out a dial caliper and write you up for .429 out of a 50 sabot so 45 full bore is my only option for deer with this rig. I'll definitely play around with 40/10mm for coyote loads, cheaper range sessions and out of state hunts where .40 is legal.

If there are threads I may have missed in the search that would be beneficial please link them here but I have spent a good amount of time running through the search.

Thanks Yall!

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

All the Barnes bullets I have tried out of my 45's are easy to size. The Hornady 250 grain Mono's can be a chore. My Nephew took a large bodied Iowa buck at 200 yards with a Barnes 250 grain TEZ, the bullet was caught on the off side under the hide. 300 yards could be a stretch with that bullet at black powder substitute speeds.

 

[ElDiablo]

That’s a lot of questions….

 

[ElDiablo]

To answer one of them. I almost always hunt on a fouled barrel. No reason not to with BH209.

 

[SpringThunder]

Yeah. I feel like I'll only really stretch the distance with the bushmaster. I seen that black friday price on the ultralight and was needing another gun. Looking back at it now I should have saved more and went the smokeless route but just another reason to get one more down the line.

Yeah it is a lot of questions. Been thinking about making a post for quite sometime and haven't because I knew that would be the number one response haha. Better to ask though instead of doing something unsafe or without any ideas of the outcomes.
The Rangemasters look down upon the inline guns at one of the ranges I frequent. Couple like them but if its not a round ball they don't have much to advise upon doing or not.

Thanks fellers.

 

[illinoishunter]

Welcome SpringThunder, also from Kane County Illinois.

 

[bulletbusiness]

http://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com

Outstanding 45 caliber lead bullet to bore 45 caliber bullets

 

[ElDiablo]

3. Wool wads... to lube or not to lube?
I purchased 45 cal wool wads and have since read I should have bought 50 cal for the 45? either way the 45 wool non lubed pushed that ballistic extreme out at red ryder velocity. Switched to Veggies and no issue because its what I should have seated that first shot on anyway.

With BH209 and sized Ballistic Extremes - I’d use a dry oversized (.50 in a .45) wool wad. Mine are actually ~.472 (12 mm) that I punch myself. But .50 would work fine with wool.

 

[brad502a]

I have had EXCELLENT results with FURY bonded bullets. They kill deer dead and are easy to size and stay sized. I have had issue with spring back with Hornady bullets.

How does your rifle perform? Is a clean bore shot different from a fouled bore shot?? I always foul with three or four 209 primers and do not see much difference.

A caliper is not the correct tool to measure the ID of your bore. Why do you want it measured? Use your adjustable sizing die to find the correct bullet to bore fit (about 20 lbs. of force to seat). Then measure the bullet with a .0001" micrometer. The real enemy here is bore consistency top to bottom.

IL law stating 44 cal projectile is ambiguous. A 44 cal bullet is .429", a 38 cal is .357". You will probably never find a DNR officer with a caliper. This was a law written by politicians, who did not know their head from a hole in the ground. A buddy got into an arguement with a DNR officer about 40 cal bullets in sabots. The DNR officer though it was fine and had to be pointed out the law. "that is just stupid" was his quote.

 

[billyboy*]

A buddy got into an argument with a DNR officer about 40 cal bullets in sabots. The DNR officer though it was fine and had to be pointed out the law. "that is just stupid" was his quote.

I've had friends in Illinois tell me the same thing. Their DNR Officer said the Barrel had to be Stamped .44 Cal or Larger??? (Interpretation) They were using the .40 Cal 195 Gr Barnes MZ Expanders??? And Years earlier it was the argument if Large Rifle Magmun Primers were Legal.

"275 Ballistic extreme is what I'm dialed in for now and have 250 and 300 to play with but interested in other options."

The Parker 275 Gr BEs are Very Accurate because they are SOFT. I've had good luck with Annealed & Knurled Barnes .451" 250 Gr TEZ with Wool Wads. But these Need to be driven Fast though.

 

[bronko220002]

Sizing all copper bullets is no problem with your die. You're not going to hurt it. Brad is correct about Hornady bullets but I size and use them. I run them thru the sizer 3x so they will stay. Even with Furys I run them thru twice just to be sure. As for wool wads, oversized dry like Diablo suggests.
BH209 - sure if you can afford it. If not then try Triple 7.
Fouled barrel? That depends on your rifle. I have quite a few that will hit same POI on clean or slightly fouled barrel. When I'm load testing I swab well between shots even with BH209 because I want to simulate shooting with a clean barrel. That's probably a draw back of my old black powder only days.
One shot is normally all I've ever needed so why not do it on a clean barrel.
Good luck and hope to see more of your posts.

 

[SpringThunder]

Well I made it out to the range on Wednesday. Extremely high heat. 90+

Before you read all this below the questions I have from this range day is... will shimming prevent the primer from seizing in the primer pocket? Since the firing pin, for BH purposes, is oversized is the only way to solve any issues related to it is having it worked down?

First thing I noticed is that when I had sized my bullets, only a couple, the previous time at the range they slipped straight on down after my first shot, which was perfect as the first shot was sized for clean bore. Not to sure if it was the heat from the day or also possibly sending to many down range to quick. Didn't shoot the previously sized bullets after the first dropped down.

First shot was low by an inch on clean bore but was also 10 grains lower than the roughed in zero for testing. Believe that would put me at clean or dirty same zero but will verify that whenever I find the pill I'm going to stick with down the line.

Sized the bullets for the range that day from there on.

I was able to test 250, 275 and 300gr Ballistic Extremes for a couple different charge weights. Probably going to throw that data out due to the rest I brought and size of the ultralight ment the rest was popping my chin so flinch was aquired that day. Even with flinches I did my best to shoot my best in the circumstance I put myself in.

It was interesting to see some groups tighter than others at certain charges and weights of bullets. Will keep that data for groups per grain of powder and grain of bullet.

When I had sized the 275 at my initial range session with the rifle it was on the 3 mark for the swing lock. Not sure if it was barrel heat or day heat or both combined but I was able to have the die set at zero and just ran them through three times everytime keeping the same method to the madness.

I read that the finish needs to be cured from shooting rounds down range so regardless of what I did get I got trigger time and learned a little bit and I guess I helped that finish cure?

There was a spot in the barrel. I polished it up real nice from the factory and could feel a spot maybe 4 inches from the crown where the jag would bind up compared to the rest of the barrel. It seems that it might have thinned out a little bit but will know forsure next time it gets some range time.

The end of the session at the range got me to 80.5 by weight on the 275. Was going to end with 275gr and 300gr bullets at 80.5gr by weight. Swapped breech plugs because I misplace my drill bit. So fresh plug and first shot on the 275 intended group ended up being a singular shot. The primer did knight primer things, fed 209a not shimmed breech plug (got shims now) using lehigh/ssk breechplug, and got stuck in the primr pocket. That then caused me to not be able to pull the bolt back.

Not knowing what to do and not having anyone around to ask what the fudge to I tried finding a customer service number for knight. That lead to an answering machine saying send an email. Panic then set in. Not panic. Extremely furious held in rage is more like it. Sent the email off. My man Billy at Knight called me back almost immediately. They were closing down for the day so he stayed a few minutes after close walking me through what I had to do. Felt like a caveman taking a rubber mallet to the bolt but that's what had to be done to get it back.... I see why Bestills plug is the way to go and will be contacting him. Hopefully he can do some work to my firing pin aswell. Kind of extremely frustrated but Billy saved the day and the rifle didn't hit the river on the way home.

Also the detent or what have you that retains the bolt just nonchalantly fell off the gun. Luckily I was able to see it fall and recover it. Anyone have this happen? Planning on a little loctite to secure it.

The highest of highs to the lowest of lows. New slogan? Still love the rifle or I'm trying to convince myself that. Either way it's not leaving my safe to anyone elses.

275s grouped the best at all weights of BH.
250s grouped better with lighter charges and it seemed I was shrinking the 300s as I was increasing powder charges. Would have had loved to see what the 300s did with the 80.5 by weight charges but there is always next time if I can get something squared away on the breech end of things and have the firing pin either worked down or Bestilled haha.

Going to pick up one more pack of the B.E. in 300 as I have the 50 pack of 275s.
Also going to be trying a few out from fury when I get this lawn mower money to blow.

I have some .452 sst in 250 and 300. Will size them and try them out for science. My buddy(no bullet to bore experience besides PB) who started me on this path years ago is interested in the sst as also I am as I have a pile of them. Also have some deep curls laying around from when I was working the 50 up.

Running BH in this 45 but T7 in the 50 for the time being. Might see how a couple loads go in the 50 with BH as I stumbled upon it at scheels last time momma had to have radiation done.

I'm not sure if Billy in this thread is the Billy I spoke to at knight. If it is not and somehow Knight's Billy sees this.. thankyou so much!

BONUS: Hit a new range and seen a pile of turkeys. Got a new spot to check out towards the end of wisconsins season next year. Stop in there just about every year to end off the season right.

 

[Tracker12]

Did you purchase the Lehigh plug with removable vent liners and replace the OEM one. Did Knight tell you to change to a Bestills BP. Or that just a recommendation from someone.

 

[SpringThunder]

Using the Lehigh plug with removable vent liners. Knight didn't say anything about going with Bestill, that is completely off of recommendations.

The only thing knight told me was that I may have to send the firing pin to them to turn it down since its not intended for BH. not sure if the width of the pin is more designed for caps but its a fat little firing pin for sure. Was also told that for when the primers get stuck if I was to take a dremel and remove some material in the horseshoe to make it wider it would be easier to reach in there and remove the stuck primer. no thanks on that... Having the firing pin turned down doesn't sound bad to me though.

Would probably Reach out to Bestill/Jeff about the Breech plug. did prior to even purchasing the rifle. Being a machinist I'd imagine I could have him turn the firing pin down as well. The man works magic. If you are in a similar boat I'd say reach out.

All these Custom Smokeless builders should be contacted by major manufacturers to bullet proof there designs before release in my opinion...

 

[Tracker12]

Are you saying someone from Knight told you to Dremel the face of your bolt to help remove stuck primers?

 

[SpringThunder]

not the face essentially but the horseshoe or what have you... yes. to create more clearance to get my fingers in there.... not happening.

 

[Tracker12]

This is direct from Knight as it relates to firing pins:

All bolt gun firing pins will be the same and they will be the same no matter your type of ignition. The disc is a bolt gun but it was designed before Blackhorn was made and we cannot guarantee the consistency to which it will fire the powder. That will be the only bolt gun model that could have an issue with Blackhorn. The bolt not moving back is a different issue. We try to accommodate all suppliers' primers and the variable types of loads that will be put into the gun. The bolt is a constant and loads are the variable.

Steven Bryan PRODUCTION MANAGER | KNIGHT RIFLES w: www.Muzzleloaders.com | p: 866.518.4181